Roads & Mills

[Steven]

Hi

where exactly is Sandup farm, I cannot recall.

The water that was redirected was at Red Bank Mill, it was the Newton Brook that runs down the back of Red bank that was diverted


Red Bank Mill


The water coming in from the top left, was slowed down and diverted by the building of a wier to artificially lift the level and cause the water to run to the left to the mill, it is this diversion that was the problem between the Brothertons and the Leghs.

This is not the first time water has been diverted in this area, In books.google.com sometime ago, I found a ref to the Sankey River, being blocked by a dam in the mid 1750s so that the whole valley was flooded, and that eventually the water from the Sankey River upstream of the dam, would run into and fill up the newely dug Canal, the local landowners were up in arms at this, not realising how much land would get flooded and ruined before the Canal got filled. I do not know exactly where the Sankey was dammed, but the text seemed to suggest somewhere between the Vulcan and Winwick

Steven Dowd

[She]

Thanks Steven
Sandup farm is on the right of Newton Road as you pass the Bulls Head on the left. It is the next farm to Sandfield Hall.

The Sankey Valley dam thing is of interest, as it could mean that a river did run close to where we claim St Oswald was slain after all.

[Steven]

She

It was the Sankey, that passes under Sankey Viaduct and runs on the west side of the Canal, and past the Fiddle in'th Bag Inn that was dammed, i do not think that would be anything to do with Hermitage Green or St Oswalds well area

Sandup farm is so close to the many gavel Pits and Sand Pits that used to cover that area that I wonder if the chimney might be something todo with that business, the sand from that area was used by the Tilery in Newton, so maybe there might have even been a tilers at Sandup farm, there is a Pump shown at the premises in the 1849 map, at the same time that the Gravel Pits were still in use and before Sandfield Hall was built, I cannot find anything which specifically mentions the farm or what happened there in the newton stuff i have, maybe its mentioned in one of the Lowton Furrows books.

Steven Dowd

[bob]

over the weekend i was speaking to someone who is not on the internet, but has a keen interest in Newton’s history, he asked me about mills at the bottom of the common, so looking at this thread again, and from what he was telling me, i wonder if there could have been some sort of mill, what type i wouldn’t like to say, at this strange bend in the brook at one time?
Here is a few shots to explain what i think he means, and i must say i am intrigued with it, hope i got it right.

the red dots show where i think he means, the others show other features i hope someone can tell me what they are, like an old road or path or was it a leat, i have not walked that area so i am in your hand so to speak.

[bob]

To add a little to this question about missing mills and roads,
here is the 1970 picture, its less than 100k so it is hard to get the quality of the original, -
Steve, would you know what was there at the bottom of the picture marked with a large red question mark,
the road or leat leading from it which seems to go to the old farm house, i think someone mentioned the Name Spurling lived there, seems to go to it,
i have marked with little blue arrows what i suspect was the old road from Collins Green, ( who was collins anyway?)
there seem to be a shadow of a spur road crossing it near to the new road marked with little orange arrows,
And top left marked with a large orange arrow, what seems to be a ground marks showing past activity, anyone know what was there.
also i have put a green arrow on a 90 degree bend in the brook, that to me does not look natural.

bob

[bob]

Going back to the roads subject, Steve has always maintained that the road from Winwick to Newton is new, and that the old road meandered through Hermitage Green lane, and then around the back of the station going up to the high street, i think i may have found some evidence of this, and by using the full version of Google Earth, and the measuring tool it has with it,
this very old passage in old English gives exact measurements,

"...............there is a chappel situated in Ashton, Fower myles 132 poles and 2 yards from the Parish Church of Winwick, and two myles from Newton chappel, and Mr. James Woodes is Minister there, a very Godly preacher, a man of very good life and conversacon, but did not keep the last fast day appoynted by Acte of Pliamt, for hee had noe orders, And hath for his sallury the Tythe of Ashton, by order from the comittee of plundered Ministers, and came in by free Ellecon of the whole Towne, which said Tythe is worth one hundred pounds and two shillings, and there is also a donatie of Nine Shillings and sixpence p. ann, paied by John Homfryson to the said Mr. Woodes. And in regard to the distinct (distance) from the Parish Church and other Chappells, we psent that it is fitt to bee made a parish, And the rest of Haydock (Excepting those howses presented to bee annexed to Newton and St Ellens) to be ioyned unto the said Parish of Ashton."

i found that a pole is 5 and a half yards- so (bit of math here) correct me if i am wrong but 132 poles =726 yds =2 = 728yds
1760 yds in the mile x2=3520+728 = 4248 yds,
now if you set the measuring tool in Google to yards, the new way is much shorter, but Steves way is near as dam it, but still a few yards short,
- But if you go on to measure the next 2 miles to the said missing chappel of St Thomas in Ashton, it comes near to the old Haydock Lodge grounds, nowhere near the center of Ashton,
If anyone has some time to spare and can get the exact path resulting in the exact distances, let me know.
Bob

[Podstar66]

Bob,

Is the 'Fower myles', supposed to be four miles ?


If so, then the chapel in Ashton would be 7768 yards away from Winwick.

4 x 1760 yards = 7040 and

132 x 5.5 yards = 726, plus that 2 yards = 728.

7040+728 = 7768 yards

So your distances on Google needs to adjusted.

Pod

[bob]

Pod, i was just measuring from Winwick to Newton, the 2 (myles -miles) from Newton to Ashton i took as an exact distance, as if they can be so precise with myles, poles, and yards, have you checked it on google yourself?
Bob

[bob]

Pod, i have found an exact distance route, from Winwick to Newton church,
its one i mentioned to Steve some time back, and to be honest, it will fit in with Dr Kuerdens writings,
Bob

[She]

Really interesting chaps. Can you describe this route please Bob. I understand the early bit from Winwick church but then get muddled.
It looks as though the latter part of the route follows the path of the present day brook. Anyway here is my 2 pennyworth of a theory as I have always throught we neglected the part footpaths had to play in times of yore.

I have always understood (rightly or wrongly) that in the past people of olden times did often elect to walk different routes than those maybe rode along with horse and cart. Hey...maybe thats where the word road came from...rode? Just a guess!

However tis logical as walking routes/paths where probably safer. On a main route you could get run over by affore mentioned horse and cart or twist an ankle in a pothole. (I understand the conditions of these ancient roads were very very bad). Plus maybe the highwaymen only targetted the roads where cargo came up and down, so another good reason for a walker to avoid them. Maybe on foot (which I presume K was), the walking routes were short cuts. I guess that the tolled roads would also be avoided for those who didn't want to pay.

So is it not probable that Mr K did take an alternative route to Newton church IF he was on foot, and I am just presuming he was. Maybe he was on a horse? Then again- there are bridal paths as well and they are another story.
Just to add that people did often walk or ride alongside river banks as a means of navigation and watering the horses, so its not impossible that Mr K took either a walking route or bridal path and part of this may have followed the brook into Newton.

[bob]

and two myles from Newton chappel

if the measurements are correct, then St Thomas chapel can not have been in the center of Ashton, it was more probably on the site of Haydock lodge somewhere, if not it could have been in the old village of Haydock town, long since gone,
bob

[bob]

Steve mentioned to me that the route to Ashton from Newton would have gone towards the old Haydock Town, now non existent, i have replotted it using Steve's route, which means the early chapel mentioned on St Thomas website that is presumed to be under the existing church, could possibly have been at the old Haydock town.

Bob

[She]

Still can't understand where you are going to and from viewing the map Bob> Can you explain for the rest of us who arn't up to date with this post please? It looks interesting but I can't get a grip of what you are trying to explain. Sorry for being dumb here...

[bob]

Sorry, when Steve and i chat we tend to know exactly where each other is talking about, and i am not the worlds best at English, so forgive me if i sound condescending in my next explanation, i am going to try and explain in simple terms,
Ok, if you look on the St Thomas church website of Ashton -
http://www.stthomasandstluke.co.uk/history2.asp
if mentions several churches / chapels may have stood on its present site,
Now - it also gives from an historical document passage the exact distances from Winwick to Newton and from Newton to the Chapel supposedly at Ashton,
So - when we convert the said - myles(miles) poles (5.5 yards) and add the yards given from Winwick to Newton it is dam near perfect as to what Steve as said the roads of that time would have been,
So if the distance they have measured for that section is so spot on,
then we can strongly assume the distance from Newton to the chapel will also be correct, ( 2 myles)
ok - i first measured the distance using the old loop road to the back of Haydock lodge from wiswalls, and that takes the 2 miles to the garden area at the back of the old lodge, which is now an housing estate,
Steve then suggested to me that the road would have gone towards haydock old town from wiswalls, and not on the private lodge road,
So - that way when one measures the 2 miles from Newton church towards Ashton it takes you to the center of Haydock old town,
Now we know Haydock has been mentioned in many an historical document
and such people as Gilbert de Haydock held a manor there, which is not far from Haydock town,
the question is! was the first chapel mentioned in Ashton, of was it in Haydock lodge area, or even in Haydock town, the other point being that it says a Worsley is recorded to have been married in a chapel, which i understand could have been part of a large hall, now could that be Haydock Hall, or maybe Garswood hall, Brynn Hall, or even Bruch Hall or Peel Hall,
maybe i should plot the 2 miles from Newton to the old site of Haydock Hall, but which road would that have took?
here is a section of an overlay Steve recently did, it shows bottom right the road coming from Newton to Wiswalls, the green dots to the right is the line of the old private loop drive to the lodge, the road to the left at Wiswalls goes to Haydock town, you can get your bearing by looking for the motorway and the east lancs road, now unfortunately the overlay didnt go up as far as Haydock town in the picture, only in the old map, but i think you should be able to get it from there,
Ok - this is an History site, and if anything history wise we take as granted comes under question, we must examine it, not just for us, but for future historians, who may have better access to archives and computers than we have now, but its information like this that may help in the future,
The whole subject has come about while i am looking for any information on Bruche Hall, ( yet another one destroyed) and if its not bad enough that the history is being demolished, i hope to preserve the memory of it before that is forgot by time.

bob

[bob]

Hope this may help a little, this map was first plotted in the 1820s and modified every few years until a complete new map in 1849, this seems to be the last modified map before the 1849,
i can only upload 100k pictures so i have done my best with it,
in this you can see the back loop road from haydock lodge to wiswalls, and then a road no longer there seems to go down to crow hall, that seems to be a cross roads marked with a blue dot, the other halls and churches are marked in red,

you can plainly see the old Haydock town, but in this one a road seems to come out of the old town towards Ashton and ends in a blank square marked with a green dot, i have no idea what that was or why the road seems not to link in with the main A49 Ashton road, again this seems to be very close to New Hall and of course is on the roman road, so maybe that needs looking at, but on this next aerial shot there seems to be a few dark patches but that could be from a WW2 camp or even a gasworks?
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.4 ... 4&t=h&z=15
you decide.
bob